ForumTopic: Morality of nudism

This area is moderated, which means that all input will be reviewed, so expect a delay of a few hours before it appears on the website. Northcoast Naturists reserves the right to edit all input for relevance, but welcomes all discussion about naturism. Comments that have an interest for a short time may be removed after a while.

25 Oct 2002 Time: 10:36:27 From:

Convince me with replies on this bulletin board why NUDISM is okay and not immoral. I think it is lewd and sexual. Thank you.

28 Oct 2002 Time: 12:55:21 From:

Nudism is for clean minded people. They don't allow immoral people in nudist activities. If you think nudism is lewd, it is because you have a bad mind. Nudism in itself is okay.

17 Nov 2002 Time 7:24:03 From Webmaster

What is or isn't immoral is a personal decision. If you think that nudism is immoral, it is not up to me to convince you otherwise.

However I suspect that there are occasions where you would not regard that being nude was immoral, for example in a doctors office, or when you are alone with your spouse. Social nudists, such as you would find at any AANR sanctioned club, have no problem being nude in front of others in non-sexual situations and in an atmosphere of politeness and respect.

If you do wish to be convinced that nudism is not immoral, the best way would be to attend a club event and see for yourself.

24 Nov 2002 Time: 15:07:35 From: tom hatterick

I have been a nudist for only 2 years now. I have found nudism to be anything but lewd and sexual. in fact what goes on at a clothed beach or swim club is often lewd and sexual. You often see staring, pointing and lewd comments. You hear people making fun of people who don't have the best bodies. None of that goes on at a nudists resort or club. You are accepted for who you are, not your body type. there is no staring, pointing of fingers, judging or any other negative things. No one cares what you look like only that you are a nice person.

4 Dec 2002 Time: 23:02:31 From Paul K

In response to your request to be convinced with a response, I must say that for every argument there is an equal counter-argument. To be convinced you must experience!

I sincerely disagree with the idea that you have a bad mind though. You have YOUR mind, shaped by your life experiences and your formal & informal education. It is neither right nor wrong and certainly not BAD! It is simply yours. And, only you can change it! I can only offer you my "Testimony" as to the merits of nudism in my own life...

As a child I was abused both sexually and physically. This, coupled with the religious ideals I was raised in, left me to grow up believing that my body was impure and somehow "bad";. To make a long story short, extensive counseling helped me reclaim much of my life but could not undo my own perceived physical dirtiness of my body. This "dirtiness" was removed by the act of standing, quite literally, naked in front of a crowd and seeing that they DID NOT point at me and ridicule me and say that I was unclean and dirty! I was accepted as I was and welcomed as a friend to all. What an incredibly wonderful and freeing experience (and quite terrifying too!).

Once my own dirtiness was removed, the precept of accepting others as they are finally made sense and took on an entirely new meaning for me. I am very much a better person for the experience and the continued practice of social nudity only reaffirms that positive growth.

Consequently, my wife, (who is an active nudist for her own affirmations) , and I close the door to our bedroom for a reason. What goes on there is secret, sacred and sanctified. It is ours and ours alone. We jealously guard our intimacy, (and have found it to be delightfully enhanced by our own acceptance of ourselves and each other), and that story ends here.

To close, I can only say that nudism is a Godsend for me. For you I can only ask, 'Why waste your time with the words of others when your own experience is as close as one of our swims?'. Go!, and see for yourself already!!!

02 Mar 2003 Time: 20:14:21 From: Dario

There is a time and place for such behavior. People from all walks of life visit nudist and naturist clubs and beaches.

We live in a society where the issues of sex and nakedness are considered off-limits with children and certain body parts are considered 'private' or 'rude bits'.

Naturist and nudist clubs have always attracted people who are more sexually liberal than the norm, hence why some do cater for that crowd.

Nudists who are Christians say that we are made in God's image and the human body is not to be ashamed of. Yes, we are born that way, but we also have to contend with issues of legalism, eroticism, racism and sexism that tend to complicate nudity.

The most important thing of all is for adults to behave in a mature and responsible manner where nude recreation is concerned.

The golden rule of naturism is 'treat others the way you wish to be treated'.

23 Jul 2003 Time: 00:43:13 From: Looking for some truth!

Why is it that every magazine or internet advertisement for nudism/naturalists features 90% pictures of young, slim, nubile women? I rarely ever see nude pictures of older, fatter women. And I rarely see pictures of naked men, unless the men themselves are looking for nudist partners and are posting their own pictures. And why does almost every nudist resort sign features a silhouette of a young, nubile woman? If nudism was for everyone, then the pictures wouldn't be so everwhelmingly of young, naked females. These are not porno sites on the internet, so please don't make that argument. These are real nudist sites.

Why is it that the majority of nudists wanting to attend nudist resorts are men (mostly middle aged)?

There's something wrong with the argument that nudism has nothing to do with sex when one considers the two aforementioned facts.

My parents became nudists in their middle age. Translation: my father has always been a sexual voyueur. This desire became stronger in middle age when my mother grew less attractive. My mother went along with him to humour him. I've never seen my father interested in volleyball - unless of course it meant watching young, naked women bounce their breasts in front of him.

Why can't nudists be truthful about the way they exploit young women? How in the hell do they hope to attract more women when it's very clear by their advertisements that women are being exploited. Just be honest, for frig's sake!

23 Jul 2003 Time: 19:58:31 From: Webmaster

Advertisements for commercial resorts are sometimes guilty of displaying less than representative pictures! But in their defense, they are paying for ad space and don't have room for dozens of pictures of people of all shapes and ages. Nude cruise ads often show large groups of people, and then they do show all types.

Check out the AANR Bulletin, you will see that they are totally truthful- there are pictures of all types, and very few pictures of 'beautiful' people.

Some clubs have quotas to maintain an equal ratio of men to women. Our club has no quotas and manages to attract a large number of women. The reason why men outnumber women may be our culture's obsession of 'physical perfection' for women, while men are honored no matter what their appearance. Fortunately, nudists believe in 'body acceptance' which means that people are valued for their character and not their shape.

The only way that you'll find out that nudism is not about sexual gratification would be for you to attend a nudist event. Then you'll see that far from being exploited, young women (and everyone) are treated with respect and dignity.

23 Jul 2003 Time: 22:45:07 From: Tell the truth

I find your arguments completely untrue. I know enough about nudism through my parents to know that - young - women are exploited, even in the family-friendly resorts you mention. Even the silhouette which is the backdrop of this page is of a young, slender woman! Give me a break!

So by your logic, commercial resorts only have a limited amount of ads to post.....so they all coincidentally choose to show naked young women? Give me a break! Believe me, I've looked at more nudist magazines than most people, and the magazines feature 90% naked young women. Stop trying to rationalize my arguments with excuses!

Any psychologist or medical practitioner will tell you that men are visually stimulated. It only stands to reason that staring at naked women appeals to men and is pleasurable for them. This is not so much the case for women.

Nudism is a man's dream! And please, once again, don't rationalize my argument that the reason men attend nudist resorts/camps in higher numbers is because they accept their OWN body more than women. They simply enjoy looking at naked females. Time for some truth.

24 Jul 2003 Time: 21:07:13 From: Webmaster

I don't know who was the model for our website wallpaper, and she certainly isn't identifiable, so I doubt she feels exploited. I'll bow to your superior knowledge of nudist magazines, I only read the TNS and AANR ones and those of a few clubs. They go out of their way to show a representative selection of ages and shapes.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the commercial ads- some do have a bias towards using women rather than men when only one person is shown, but they are still far less exploitative than run of the mill ads for just about any product you can name.

Staring is rude, but nudists aren't- so we never stare. Nudism has many aspects, but sexual stimulation is not one of them. If you doubt that, just attend a nudist event, you won't see any sign of physical arousal, instead you'll experience the wonderful feeling of shedding your clothing and being surrounded by friendly company.

Nudism is a dream, but not just for men. Far from being dragged against their will, women nudists are every bit as enthusiastic as the men, if not more so. That's the truth!

24 Jul 2003 Time: 22:02:26 From: Tell the truth

Why do you have a silhouette of a young, naked woman on your web site? Why is it ONLY this kind of silhouette? Don't tell me that any particular woman isn't being exploited. It's the female form in general that is exploited in nudism. The naked women become bodies to stare at. Their individuality matters little.

Is this kind of advertisement representative on nudism? Why don't you have a silhouette of a middle aged naked man on your web page?

24 Jul 2003 Time: 23:06:19 From: Webmaster

OK, I'll tell the truth, I'll confess. The wallpaper is mine! It is based on our club logo which is worn proudly by our members of both sexes and of all political flavors. Of the thousands of visitors, you are the first to take offense.

The design of the image is very low impact so that the content of each page is still visible. It's purpose is to convey the feeling of being a nudist- that is why the figure is naked, just as we all are whenever we can be. It also looks youthful, because we feel that way when we step out of our clothes. Why female? Why not? That was the image I had to work with and it captures the carefree grace that we all share when we are bare.

As a middle aged man, I'd be proud to have my image dancing over our pages, but as anyone who has seen me on the dance floor would attest, I do lack a certain grace!

25 Jul 2003 Time: 00:31:22 From: Tell the truth

Whenever I want a real answer, you come up with a nonsensical answer.

You still have not answered the question. Why not female? is not an adequate answer to my question about your logo. Stop with the obfuscation. Here's the truth. Since the majority of nudists are men, clubs such as yourself use images of naked women to attract men to your clubs - where they hope to meet and look at young naked women.

Then you turn around and try to convince women that going nude is somehow going to make them feel more free, so you can pull in more men. Stop lying to the women. The fact that the women of nudist groups participate in all of this only testifies to how brainwashed they are of all this crap.

Again, what other reason do you have for choosing a young female for your logo? The majority of your members are not young females. The majority of your female members don't look like this. For a group of people that claim to practice "body acceptance," I find this extremely hypocritical.

So, it seems that not only commercial resorts use pictures of young naked women to sell their product. So does your group!

Again, this is soooo typical of the whole nudist mantra. We'll rationalize every argument with subterfuge and half truths.

26 Jul 2003 Time: 22:58:02 From: Roy

The wallpaper I'm looking at looks to me to be of a non-specific gender, it sort of looks like a male form with long hair... no definite characteristics. What is there to take offense to where no definite sexual characteristics exists?

How can you tell if the image is of a young or old person? Maybe we all see what we want to see, it's like those ink blot tests, some people may see a butterfly...

27 Jul 2003 Time: 22:34:10 From: Ted, NN membership director

If you look closely, you’ll see that the NN club logo actually consists of a male and female form. Yes, they are youthful silhouettes. However, it symbolizes youthful exuberance (regardless of age) and a healthy outlook on life.

Why do the majority of nudist websites/magazines seem to portray more of the young female form? I can’t adequately answer that. Maybe it’s a societal thing. Ours is not a perfect world and nearly all forms of advertising are guilty of this. Why more men interested in nudism? Again, maybe it’s a societal thing. Present society, media, etc. does a good job of making women feel inadequate unless they fit the established standard of the times. Our club does have more male members than female. This happens without any specific targeting and appears to be the trend, at least in the US.

As in any group, a variety of personalities will be found. However, we maintain high standards and will intervene if a member or guest is displaying aberrant behavior. He (or she) will be talked to or ejected with possible membership cancellation depending on specifics of the situation (“staring” or any behavior that makes women uncomfortable is not permitted).

You seem to have been deeply hurt by some aspect of your parents’ involvement. I’m sorry for that. I will not argue your points. We can only state what Northcoast Naturists is all about. It’s up to the individual to properly investigate and decide if it’s right for them. Naturism is obviously not for everyone. However, if you should ever desire a more in depth look at NN, please feel free to ask for our information packet which includes the latest issue of our newsletter. And, you are always welcome at our activities. I wish you all the best.

28 Jul 2003 Time: 08:26:53 From: Tell the Truth

The club my parents attend (a member of the fcn) has a miss nude world contest, porn in the bedrooms, and pictures of young naked women that adorn the walls of the place. Their logo is a naked woman (again, young and slim). My mother, usually a strong woman, looks the other way at all of this and doesn't deal with the inconsistency.

Don't tell me belonging to the aanr or the fcn make these places all about nature and not about sexuality. Don't tell me that these places don't exploit young women. DON'T tell me that naturist videos and magazines aren't basically ways to provide photos of young, naked women. I know differently.

If nudists don't stare, why are there even pictures in any of these magazines? It's okay to stare at the pictures, but not while there? What hypocrisy!

Nudism drove a big wedge in my family. Once my parents had implied we were going to go - whether we liked it or not - I darn near had to threaten to call the police before they stopped it. It's caused a problem ever since with family outings. I've lost a lot of respect for my parents.

To anyone else reading this, you better consider your family values before adopting this lifestyle. And get some real information about the places and people you'll be seeing.

28 Jul 2003 Time: 19:59:43 From: Webmaster

Like Ted, I'm sorry your family caused you pain as a result of their interest in nudism. Most of us agree that the benefits of nudism are not for everyone. We recognize that modern culture equates nudity with sex and sin and that these hang-ups interfere with a natural life.

I have visited the club in Canada that your parents attend and it upholds the same high standards as AANR clubs. You see the pictures as pornography, my wife and I have seen them and consider them to be art. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

There are plenty of people who do exploit women for gain- pornographers and Madison Avenue ad agencies for example- some naturist themed videos are sold to voyeurs by pornographic outlets- but none of this is done by or sanctioned by AANR or FCN clubs. The dozen or so clubs that we have attended have been thoroughly family oriented without a hint of exploitation.

29 Jul 2003 Time:15:14:22 From: Tell the Truth

Your lack of answers to my questions should be alerting everyone reading this to the hypcocrisy of the whole nudist movement. To assume that all the overwhelming display of young females is coincidental is complete and utter ludicrousy! I hope anyone else reading this has the brains to see through your pitiful rationalizations. SHAME ON YOU.

For those of you who seek the truth, please read the information on the following links:

It seems the ponderosa sun club isn't so family friendly after all..... http://www.ponderosasunclub.com/nap-2001.htm

(Check out their nudes a popping day with porn celebrities and all ... Cameras welcome boys!!!!)

It seems the whole idea of body acceptance of nudists is just another lie http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1101016.htm

What have I mentioned about my parents club? Hmmm...porn, naked women on the walls, a nude pageant for women, and a logo of a young naked woman in Canada....Yet you know the resort? You are able to identify this resort by the things I mentioned - yet all of these aspects of the club don't seem to be very much part of the naturist utopia you describe where nudity has nothing to do with sex and women and men are treated similarly. Don't you see the inconsistency of your thinking???? At least I hope others out there reading your site have the brains to figure it out.

29 Jul 2003 Time: 20:03:14 From: Webmaster

Ponderosa Sun Club has a festival twice a year that is unashamedly aimed at voyeurs and exhibitionists. My guess is that they use it as a fundraiser for the other 363 days of the year when they are a family friendly club. But they are not affiliated with AANR. So if you are offended by this sort of thing, play safe and visit only AANR clubs- they are all squeaky clean and would only offend dyed in the wool prudes.

Ellen Woodall's study was limited to two commercial resorts in Florida, so it is hardly representative of the nudist movement as a whole. Having spent hundreds of hours at various nudist events, I have yet to observe the kind of offensive behavior she reports. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it must be very rare. Even Ellen says of this behavior: "all [are] activities one might commonly witness of larger society". So I guess the conclusion must be that while nudists may not be perfect, they do provide an atmosphere that is substantially more respectful than most other parts of society.

It wasn't hard to track down your parent's resort, I just googled "miss nude world" and FCN. My stay there was very enjoyable and nothing I saw was offensive- unless you are offended by nudity.

I hope that others out there reading our site have the brains to see for themselves before jumping to conclusions.

29 Jul 2003 Time: 15:14:22 From: Tell the Truth

So, AANR resorts are all squeaky clean, eh? Here's information about a club that is AANR approved. This one doesn't sound too family friendly either.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Silver.html Now read how innocently this resort is promoted http://sunnyrest.com/ Now read another commentary about the place - from a nudist review no less! Can't get more objective for your side than that. http://cheef.com/place.guide/US/PA/sunnyrest Clearly, AANR or such creditation of resorts means nothing.

By the way, you still have not contraindicated that the use of the young female body is overused when it comes to nudist resorts. I've given you several examples and you've basically agreed with all the examples I've given. (And by the way, do you think nudist clubs like Ponderosa should be using naked women promotions to earn money to keep their resorts afloat?) You just are trying to excuse this as some kind of coincidence or sociological phenomenon. This is not very honest of you.

Oh, and by the way, the article by Ellen Woodall mentions that she has been a practicing nudist for 15 years. That doesn't sound like someone inexperienced in "naturism" to me. Her analysis of playboy bunny idealization of women in nudism sounds bang on to me.

By the way, does the AANR even have a policy in place to track pedophiles in their midst?

30 Jul 2003 Time: 21:21:22 From: The Mother Ship

Time to come home

31 Jul 2003 Time: 09:11:47 From: Ted, membership director

Nudist resorts that are not member cooperatives must turn a profit to survive. And some that are cooperatives may resort to this sort of thing for capital fund raisers. Unfortunately, this is the apparent reason for promoting them as they do. "Sex sells" is what Madison Ave. has been telling us for years. Not all resorts are like this and not all men are the monsters you make them out to be, but you will never know because you have made up your mind based on your limited experience.

You have surmised that every nudist establishment and all men that frequent them are bad news and the entire concept of nudism/naturism is phony. The bottom line is this: Northcoast Naturists does not exploit women (even though you are convinced we do). However, it is pointless to argue with you. You have made up your mind even before your first post here. You are certainly entitled to your opinions. Again, I am truly sorry that you have been so badly hurt by your negative experience and wish you all the best.

31 Jul 2003 Time: 22:55:24 From: Tell the Truth

No, I don't think all men who are nudists are monsters. However, I do find most nudists dishonest about their motives or naive about nudism (or "naturism") in general. I find it truly remarkable that I cannot find one sight devoted to nudism and sexism - when sexism is so clearly apparent in the whole nudist movement. Is the whole naturism "movement" completely blind???

It is immoral to mislead people, like for example, your referring to Madison Ave. as exploiting women. Nudist resorts exploit women too. Perhaps nudists should stop pointing fingers at others and take a good long look at themselves - and stop with all the utopia rhetoric - particularly when approaching women - or parents - about this lifestyle.

1 Aug 2003 Time: 20:32:14 From: Webmaster

I'm surprised you couldn't find a site connecting nudism and sexism, because it is clear you have been scouring the web for any trace of negative comments. It is encouraging to us that you could come up with so little. If nudist men are exploiting women as you suggest, I am surprised that so many honest, independent and free thinking women of all ages keep showing up week after week and year after year.

Far from being blind, I base my opinions on what I have seen with my own eyes, not rooting around in dark corners of the web for unsubstantiated rumors or scandalous term papers.

Yes, there is a dark side to nudism, but it comes from outside, not within. Occasionally, evil people do invade our near-utopia, but they are quickly expelled and their identities shared so they cannot continue their disruptive ways at other clubs.

01 Aug 2003 Time: 23:54:09 From: Tell the Truth

The fact that I can't find any nudists addressing the topic of sexism merely indicates to me how blind they are to this topic - not that sexism doesn't exist. All my posts have given you examples of how the female form is disproportionately used (or exploited) by mainstream nudist organizations. Again, Ellen Woodall said as much in her study. Nudist women (and men) are so fooled by the utopia rhetoric, they can't see the forest for the trees. This should be of any concern for women considering the "lifestyle."

I have not "scoured" the internet looking for sources to back up my claims. Are you arguing that any source for what I've posted is untrue? Don't forget I also know nudism from my parents' "lifestyle." I'm not just being academic here. I know enough about the "lingerie" nights of my parents' club to know it's not all about healthy outdoor living.

Well, it seems like one more wholesome nudist resort has revealed itself for something other than what it claimed to be. This one is an FCN resort no less (Ponderosa). This is just so laughable - and so predictable.

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=bau8u1%2440s%241%40slb5.atl.mindspring.net&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26group%3Drec.nude

03 Aug 2003 Time: 09:15:58 From: Tell the Truth

Since the above URL did not work, I wanted to tell those reading this site, that the information was from the nude volleyball organization that holds tournaments in various nudist locales. They have decided to sanction the Ponderosa Club in Canada and not play there - for a year!- because the club was holding swinger evenings on multiple occasions in the spring of 2003. The FCN is aware of this and has merely asked them to stop. No mention of such problems are listed on the fcn website. I guess that would be giving the public too much information.

04 Aug 2003 Time: 19:35:41 From: Webmaster

It sounds to me is that the system of checks and balances within the nudist community is working fine.

We aren't thought police, so we don't know what people are thinking. But we do require certain standards of behavior such as a complete ban on sexually explicit conduct in public. Your link reports that a few members of a swinger club decided to congregate at a nudist resort, but warned fellow swingers that the resort doesn't "allow sex in any public area's". Presumably they were less than discrete and someone found out and complained. The nudist wheels of justice moved and action was taken.

05 Aug 2003 Time: 02:36:04 From Tell the Truth

This was not an isolated group of swingers at the Ponderosa. This was a swingers club who met there REGULARLY. They even advertised the place on their web site!

Ponderosa has been issued warnings by the FCN - yet the FCN mentions nothing of this on its website where approved clubs are listed. Frankly, I would be incensed as a parent to be misled by the FCN about what kind of place I was taking my child or my family - and the FCN by saying nothing is basically lying about what kind of clubs they are approving.

A while back on this site you assured me that AANR clubs (and by extension, I assume you also meant FCN clubs) didn't have any of this kind of behaviour going on. Well, I've now given you an example of less than family-oriented activities at two clubs. I'm not even going to start in on the swinging and dances that go on at Paradise Lakes - also an AANR club.

Stop with the lies. People out there should not be fooled.

By the way, please explain to me how an organization the size of the AANR does such a poor job of tracking pedophiles at nudist clubs and warning other clubs of their existence. Also, please explain to me how they even allow any kind of photography to be taken of nude children at nudist resorts when those same pictures are showing up in pedophile magazines.

<name removed by editor> - a former leader of the ASA - which is now the AANR - was selling videos of nude children. When asked if he thought this material was landing up in the hands of pedophiles, he could not be sure. Yet he didn't have a problem with selling it. This is the kind of leadership you look to for guidance????

GIVE ME A BREAK!! I WOULD NEVER LET MY CHILD INTO ANY KIND OF ORGANIZATION LIKE THIS!

06 Aug 2003 Time: 21:58:17 From: Webmaster

Having been to Ponderosa, I saw nothing that made me doubt that it was a normal, family oriented nudist resort and the dozen or so of my friends who have been there saw nothing amiss either.

I can't say that no inappropriate behavior ever occurs at nudist venues. It must happen sometimes, but if it is discovered it is never tolerated and it is quickly stopped. Actually the AANR and the network of clubs and commercial resorts is very effective at ensuring that pedophiles and other troublemakers are identified and handled. I know of no other social group that can match our success record.

One of the rights and responsibilities of being a parent is to make choices regarding the safety and welfare of their children. You may be surprised to learn that a nudist community is far safer than a church or scouting group- check the statistics. The reason is simple: children are always among many responsible adults, they are never alone with a 'leader' whose trustworthiness cannot be totally assured.

19 Aug 2003 Time: 15:57:09 From: Tell the truth

1. Other recreational organizations don't involve themselves with nudity as their purpose for existence. Where else but a nudist club can pedophiles expose themselves to nude children on a regular basis - with the encouragement of parents - and not

get in trouble? Where else can a pedophile obtain nude pictures of children - with the permission of parents?

2. Swinging and other adult sexual situations do occur in nudist groups. No other "wholesome" organizations that I know of have this problem. The sexual tension or even the perceived sexual tension will attract undesirables.

3. The Boy Scouts have at least acknowledged the problem with pedophiles and have taken direct steps at the national level to help eliminate the problem. (There must be two adults present at all outings.) Nudists don't want to acknowledge the problem because it challenges their sales pitch that their resorts are like the Garden of Eden. I have yet to see one nudist magazine devote itself to informing parents of this issue - or delving into how violated these children might feel later on in life when they find pictures of themselves on the internet somewhere.

4. Nudist magazines like Going Natural (a magazine of the fcn) are more interested in showing the "wholesomeness" of nudism by including nude children in their magazine - despite where such pictures end up. Why a movement would sacrifice the emotional and psychological well being of its youngest members to make some kind of political/public relations point seems particularly cruel to me.

5. The FCN's "Going Natural" has advertisements for videos which show teenage nude beauty pageants and hour-long videos of naked boys doing athletics. What purpose do such videos serve to promote human beings at one with the natural world? It's more likely the men - who make the effort to order and pay for such videos - simply like spending hours on end looking at naked children. GIVE ME A BREAK THAT THESE MEN ARE NOT PEDOPHILES!

To say that parents are responsible for their children is a crock when nudist organizations (like the AANR and the FCN) promote their places as being family friendly and don't inform parents of the potential problems of those places. Where on your web site do you inform parents of these potential problems?

BTW, as an aside, where on your women's web site do you tell women they run the danger of having their pictures posted on the internet while engaging in nude recreation? Where on your web site do you inform women about the gender imbalance in your organization?

I also want to add that any child attending a boy scouts meeting or the like will probably not be doing so in an environment where alcohol is being served (most nudist resorts inevitably serve alcohol - and promote this fact enthusiastically in all their ads) and in areas where smoking is allowed. My local municipal pool and gym serves neither alcohol nor allows for smoking indoors - a much healthier place for a child to be.

06 Aug 2003 Time: 21:58:17 From: Webmaster

1. I don't pretend to understand pedophiles, but I suspect it would be no thrill for them to simply be observed by children, especially when the children are too busy having fun to even notice.

2. Explicit sexual behavior is simply not tolerated in AANR style clubs. You may find it hard to believe, but there is no sexual tension connected with nudism.

3. Unlike most organizations that have been shown to engage in cover ups, the nudists have a zero tolerance for this kind of abuse. There are no second and third chances.

4. Our magazines show people of all ages because there are nudists of all ages. There is no shame in being photographed in the nude for all to see. The only reason we sometimes conceal our identity is because of fear of reprisals from narrow minded people in a position of power.

5. There is a natural imbalance in the sex ratio amongst nudists. But even in a club like ours with an open door policy, the difference is not large. I think the difference is due to our society applying more pressure on females to think that it is in some way shameful to be nude.

I agree with you that smoking is unhealthy for people of all ages, but fortunately the risks are reduced in an outdoor setting, and we are outside whenever we can be. Our indoor swim events are strictly non-smoking.

22 Aug 2003 Time: 23:41:46 From: Tell the truth

"2. Explicit sexual behavior is simply not tolerated in AANR style clubs. You may find it hard to believe, but there is no sexual tension connected with nudism."

Have you completely forgotten about the AANR clubs I have previously mentioned? Paradise Lakes? Sunny Rest? The swinging club that meets in (FCN approved) Ponderosa in Ontario? It appears the majority of nudist resorts now have lingerie dances. Are you completely ignoring all my previous posts? Others reading this simply have to scroll up to see your untruths.

Going Natural also did a big spread on the joys of attending Hedonism II. Again, what is a family friendly organization like the FCN doing promoting Hedonism?

BTW, I also think any organization that encourages members from giving anything but their first name to other members is not a place I want my kids to be.

06 Sep 2003 Time: 17:17:44 From: Questioning

Hi all. I just found this discussion forum today. It's been an interesting and thought-provoking read, although I've sometimes been maddened by the Webmaster's rationalizations.

I'm mainly writing to tell Tell The Truth that there are, in fact, people reading this who are open to hearing what you have to say. Not just people with "explanations" like "Yes, there is a dark side to nudism, but it comes from outside, not within." (the Webmaster, Aug 1) (Question: Didn't every nudist/naturist, including the Webmaster and his wife, originally come from "outside"?)

To tell you a little about myself, I'm a young-adult male; I've been thinking seriously about trying nudism, but I haven't quite made up my mind yet. (That is to say, I've haven't tried organized nudism yet. I have spent a good deal of time naked, alone or in the presence of roommates.)

Tell The Truth, although I don't agree with you on all points (not yet at least), some of the stuff you said really spoke to me. I very disappointment that more people haven't been joining the discussion lately -- all of your posts have been responded to by either the Webmaster (see my earlier remarks) or occasionally by "Ted, NN membership director" (his remarks seem slightly better). Hopefully other people will join the discussion at some point. Here's one, anyhow.

By the way, I have read Ellen Woodall's paper, and I think she makes some good points. (Incidentally, I came across this discussion page by entering her name into google.) One comment: her paper focuses mainly on the U.S. (as the title suggests). From reading your posts, it sounds like the situation in Canada is not much better (nor much worse). But would it be fair to say that there ARE some countries where the situation is better?

07 Sep 2003 Time: 10:15:07 From: Webmaster

I'm sorry my 'rationalizations' madden you, but I won't apologize for trying to be rational. I like to look at both sides of every issue, as evidenced by my willingness to publish the views of 'Tell the Truth', even though he/she seems openly hostile to nudism.

The real question to ask is: 'what is the extent of problems within the nudist community?' Ellen Woodall reports nudists being hypocritical when it comes to body acceptance. But do most nudists stand around making crude comments, or is such behavior rare? Are sexual acts openly performed, or are AANR approved organizations safe and family friendly? Are nudist venues a magnet for pedophiles or is our vigilance enough to make our clubs a safe place for our children?

If you want answers to these questions, the best way is to come and see for yourself. But failing that, go to your local library and research the archives of your local newspapers. Around here newspapers will usually send a reporter out every year or two for a feature article. Any reporter discovering salacious wrong-doing would be rewarded by fame and fortune, maybe even a Pulitzer! In my experience, the stories have always been somewhat humorous, but definitely positive.

07 Sep 2003 Time: 5:35:19 From: Tell the Truth

You said, "The real question to ask is: 'what is the extent of problems within the nudist community?'

I think the real question for this web site is - how immoral is it of the nudist community to extoll the wholesome virtues of nudism without being honest - particularly to women, children, and parents - about the problems they might face?

I'm not writing on the bulletin boards of strip club web sites because at least they're honest about their motivations. However, when one creates a untruthful atmosphere - one where parents are going to lie about their motivations for becoming nudists and then force their children into doing it, I think there's a major problem afoot - and I think the AANR, the FCN, and web sites like this are only helping in this complicity. They're also trying to hoodwink the public, which is also immoral.

Btw, I read a much more realistic portrayal of nudism on this web site http://www.americannudist.com/ Why can't the AANR be this honest?

09 Sep 2003 Time: 09:09:17 From: Webmaster

The issue of parent's rights and responsibilities is a thorny one. We have a long tradition of allowing parents to impose their own political and religious beliefs on their children. Quite rightly, the state steps in when certain lines are crossed and the behavior is considered to be abuse. Your experience was abusive, and it is clear that you were damaged as a result. Parents can hurt their children in may ways, and that is always inexcusable.

Some children seem to relish nudism- my observations are that all the kids at nudist clubs seem to be having a positive experience. I have yet to see an example of impoliteness, sulking or acting out, yet all those behaviors are common at every beach, fairground or mall where clothes are worn.

I don't have any problem with the American Nudist website, the information there is no different from that found on AANR or club sites. Mainstream nudism tends to be a bit more conservative, our websites avoid most nude imagery to encourage people to participate in the experience rather than just be watchers. We don't need an animated nipple to lure newcomers, we'd rather use friendship and acceptance.

10 Sep 2003 Time: 07:44:17 From: Tell the Truth

"Some children seem to relish nudism- my observations are that all the kids at nudist clubs seem to be having a positive experience."

Once again the above is misleading. Very YOUNG children relish nudism. Very YOUNG children also are very ignorant to half of what goes on around them. Very YOUNG children also enjoy wallowing in mud. Is it not true that the nudist movement has problems holding on to its children as members as they become older? Why don't teenagers and young adults enjoy going?

I was not commenting on the appropriateness of the pictures on the American Nudist sight. As I've mentioned before, nudists tend to exploit young bodies - surprise surprise that that web site also does this. What I was commenting on was the description of nudist resorts and the activities that go on. At least that web site was honest in admitting to the swinging, the ogling of young bodies, the (mis)treatment of women, the drinking, the unhealthy living of many nudists, etc.

10 Sep 2003 Time: 22:57:06 From: Questioning

Tell the Truth, I'd like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind. For starters, how old were you when you realized that your father was a voyeur, and how old were you when your parents started attending a nudist club?

To the Webmaster, I must concede that it is, in fact, very honorable of you to post opinions that you disagree with.

12 Sep 2003 Time: 10:37:17 From: Webmaster

Thank you, Questioning. We welcome the opportunity to explain ourselves. Some disagreements come from different viewpoints. For example, does our logo exploit women, or is it offensive in any way? We don't think so, but we can see how others might think differently.

Other things are more objective. Explicit sexual behavior, pedophile predation and other examples of bad behavior at AANR sanctioned clubs is exceedingly rare and simply is not tolerated. I know this to be a fact because after thousands of hours of observation, I have not seen it once. One of the reasons that I am a nudist is to enjoy exemplary standards of behavior that I haven't found in other social contexts.

17 Dec 2003 Time: 03:57:03 From: Kastro

I think nudism is great. I have a little bit of a way of making it feel as if it is natural but not lewd. Before there were robes to cover yourself there was nothing but flesh, so it is natural more than lewd. Sorry, but I'm quite the philosopher.

11 Feb 2004 Time: 01:07:53 From: Dario Western

Hi,

Hmmmm, we do seem to have a big debate on our hands here regarding nudism and naturism.

I think the reason why younger people and adults don't like it is because of the what they have experienced at certain camps. Children don't tend to be interested in magazines that feature nude kids or teenagers by default. They tend to be bought by men who make a living out of sexualizing them. Yet, they are an essential ingredient if they are to be representing family nudist activities.

No nudist club operates on the same principles: they are not endorsed by the government, and thus have their own rules and regulations. If there was found to be more of a market demand for nudism and naturism the world over and could be linked to an important theme or associated with one (e.g. witchcraft with Harry Potter and Charmed) that can prove to be of profitable social value, then I'm sure that people will be more accepting of it.

Maybe in the next 20 or 30 years when we see a shift in political powers and have large breasted beautiful women as heads of commerce, law, religion, education and entertainment, then I think that abusive behaviors and the rate of divorce, rape, and child abuse will disappear overnight, as would most of the religions and inventions of God men have strove to create in order to control people's behavior.

Dario Western

27 Mar 2004 Time: 17:56:26 From: Rick

Interesting read on this debate.

I am a single, white male, aged 30 years. I am not a nudist... reading all this about nudity being filthy, I figure, like everything else, it is a matter of choice... but choose viewing all facts and sides available.

Although, I will admit, there is points of concern, for example pedophiles... But pedophiles are not limited to nudist groups, we can find them in our schools, in our place of religious worship, in the supermarket or in our own neighborhood... Does "tell the truth" know for a fact that all the people he/she knows is not a pedophile, racist, rapist, thief, murderer, pornographer, drug user/pusher, etc.? Every day, everywhere we take a chance, chosen based on what we know... I have seen, read and heard worse stories about these things happening in the church and in schools.

As I read about young females exploited by being portrayed in the nude, i got to thinking: ok, young women are exploited like this, or are they?, as a photographer/illustrator, I know that when making use of the identifiable image of a person you require written permission of the model or person whose image you want to use commercially or otherwise, this usually done by means of a contract and with accorded remuneration... choice again, the model chose to accept terms of use. Being a silhouette as in some of the logos I've seen, I don't think there would be any specific person "exploited".

As an illustrator, I enjoy the visage of an attractive young female in the nude, and i have used it many illustrations and logos and photographs because, for me and most of the people I know, I find it more esthetically pleasing to see and portray youth, grace, beauty... face facts, physical beauty fades with age in most cases (although i have seen older men and women that look great in their 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s) and you cannot easily portray inner beauty in a graphic way... so, when I design, I use a young, beautiful, healthy and graceful body to give a message of youth, health, and grace (and the female shape is more recognizable at a glance than the male's), I don't use an old, crippled, and deformed body for this purpose.

Does the nude female body arouse me? depends on my mood. If I feel like sex, yes. If I feel like art, no. I have photographed girls in the nude, the first time I had a nude girl in front of me as a model I did get aroused sexually for about half a minute (the first and only time in my experience photographing nudes), as i got to work on snapping away i got more comfortable and there wasn't any thoughts of sex (maybe sexy or sensual, but not sex or porno, there is a difference), in fact the girl was a whole lot more comfortable than me and as the session wore on we even had a break and chatted for about half hour with her still nude and there wasn't anything sexual in the air, just two people conversing.

Is nudity sexual? Depends, you get what you bring with you. I could get more sexual thoughts about a woman dressed up in an evening gown than discussing sex with a girl that is starkers.

Should one force his/her children to a way of life? I don't know. As it was written, very young children are ignorant of the right and wrong of their surroundings... then, tell me about religious beliefs, isn't a young child ignorant to religion? Should i force my child to be Christian or Jew or catholic or protestant? which is better?

Returning to the point of exploiting... is a handicapped child exploited when portrayed in advertisements to raise awareness or medical funds? many people say yes, but it conveys an effective message... I could go to an exaggerated example (since we touched religion) and say that doesn't the Christian church do evil by exploiting the image of a man broken and tortured, bleeding and killed on a cross? I could say "I don't want my child exposed to such filth, such portrayal of brutality, i don't want my child traumatized by such a public exhibition of violence". (Apologies to those people that may have been offended by this example, but it could happen).

Christian or Jew, black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, nude or dressed; which is better? which is good and which is evil? it is all a matter of personal opinion based

on experience (you get what you bring with you), the information at hand (get the facts, buddy), family values (you cannot choose your family but you love them anyway) and all the other little things that make you what you are.

And, in the end, it comes down to choice. If you don't want ice-cream, don't buy it, don't eat it. If you don't like nudity, don't watch it (although I don't know how comfortable it will be to shower blindfolded). If you don't like to enjoy yourself, don't. You have the freedom of choice. But also respect this same freedom in others, don't let your choices harm others. You don't agree with nudism, ok, but don't try to impose your opinion and bark at those people that fully enjoy it. After all, that's why they go to places where they can do it without bothering people with different points of view. If they hold a nudist party in your backyard and you don't like it, by all means, call the cops. If you want to go in your backyard in your birthday suit, good for you and it is your choice and freedom. If you don't like the nudist way, don't look for their WebPages or their magazines.

If you fear that your children will be affected by the nudist community, I would worry more about what they watch on the TV.; even television isn't to blame that much, after all, doesn't PG mean "Parental Guidance"? So, guide your children, educate them and, since the blind cannot lead the blind, educate yourself if need be.

I don't know if people will agree or disagree with what I have written.

It is your choice.

-Rick-

27 Apr 2004 Time: 15:14:14 From: OMG

I know this thread have been going on for awhile. I'm a member at one of the Canadian clubs mentioned and have had membership at the other club that started this thread, the one with the logo of the thin attractive female form. First off the pictures that do adorn the walls are mostly winners of past pageants, and they're women of all different ages and sizes. And yes there is porn in the rooms, but isn't there porn in all hotel rooms...last time I checked there was. And the ironic thing is the nude pageant isn't nude, its gowns and bathing suits.

There ares just so many opinions listed out here...well I'm a single female, that in no way represents the logo used or some of the pictures on brochures or web sites, but my figure is one that gets stared at whether I'm in or out of my clothes. But honestly I have felt more like a piece of meat in non-nudist places. Yes there has been at times at either resorts that it has happened, but usually its from the non-nudists, or "textiles". I know its not for everyone, but I think I have gotten more self confidence since I've become a nudist. One thing about the nudist community is that they are pretty close, and that the residents do look out for one another, and when strangers do come into the community they keep a pretty watchful eye. Even some resorts don't let single men in.

17 May 2004 Time: 17:22:45 From: Non-hostile poster

I have been to a 'clothing-optional' place once or twice (not the same as true nudist colony, I know). I second the comments from OMG (Apr 27)...the 'textiles' were definitely like all those other guys who used to wag their ... in clubs. My boyfriend and I met a couple who regularly went and, STRANGELY, had a normal conversation and a great time. It was NOT sexual or anything of the sort. I would encourage anyone who is hostile in this board to consider maybe not EVERY guy (especially) or person associated with nudist activities is a raging pedophile or sex addict. It's unfair, but more importantly, it's very inaccurate.

15 Jul 2004 Time: 20:45:48 From: Been There

Dear AANR,

We no longer support AANR or FCN as the lifestyle has become part of the fetish community thanks to your subtle endorsements (your silence) of Hedonism, Bare as you Dare dances, shaved, pierced and tattooed genitals, couples only resorts, clubhouses hosting adult lifestyle events (swinging with sex done in the rented rooms just like at real sex clubs), clothing optional resorts etc., thus making a once respectable lifestyle nothing more than foreplay for swingers, exhibitionists, voyeurs, pedophiles and a home for intoxicated white-trash, reluctant wife’s, neglected children and hurtful gossiping trailer-trash human garbage.

So Long

17 Jul 2004 Time: 20:48:14 From: Webmaster

Wow, that is quite a bestiary of perversion! So strange that at the dozen or so AANR clubs and resorts my wife and I have attended, we have yet to see any of it. Stranger still, none of the hundred or more nudist that we've spoken to about other venues have seen any of that stuff either. It makes me wonder if 'Been There' really has been there...

07 Aug 2004 Time: 17:31:07 From: The Big Nudist Lie

Been There is just being honest Mr. Webmaster and it is nice to hear that someone else shares the same view. We were kicked out of our club down here in the south west because we made a stink about organized swinger dances in the clubhouse and AANR said it was ok since the sex was not done out in the open. Then the club owners (swingers by trade as we found out) hung all sorts of legal crap over our heads for a year or so with no help from AANR. As for all of the friends we made over the decades we were in nudism? They all dumped us like rocks. Estimates are that up on third of all nudists are swingers or fantaziers of or at least leaning towards the exhibitionist, voyeur or “like the kiddies company” side of perversions. But as nudist rhetoric says, we should tolerate, accept, embrace and promote diversity. That means swingers too unfortunately. I thought sexual diversity meant gender preference but now that I’m up to date, thanks but no thanks to club nudism. Don’t forget !

those fellas that hang around the shallow end of the pool with the kids, the swing sets and hover around the shower blocks like vultures. Oh and the guy that likes to stand a little too close so he can stick his thing near your wife’s face while she is in her lawn chair, the guy that is constantly flicking, scratching and adjusting his thing in front of everyone and finally the guy that invites non-nudist people all the time so he can expose to them. And every clug has the guy that drags his wife and kids out to the club and vocally insists that they be as nude as him all of the time(pervert). And do you say anything to people that go to Hedonism every year or Paradise or Caliente for that matter. That ok with you Mr. Webmaster? It’s all about sex. Unfortunately, that IS natural.

Organized nudism is a big lie. Tell yourself the lie enough and it seems real. Nudism is not only just foreplay now but also entrenched firmly in the fetish world. How many swingers are nudists? Every last one of them so stop asking how many nudists are swingers. Nudism is about doing what feels good and nothing else. So keep surrendering yourself to your urges, call it family nudism and keep your eyes closed for all time. We have "BEEN THERE" too!

08 Aug 2004 Time: 20:38:55 From: Webmaster

Like me, I'm sure most people reading the strident anti-nudist propaganda that pops up from time to time must suspect that it all come from a single poisonous pen. The absurd claims are being rehashed with the same hateful venom and the same 'literary' style (or lack of style).

Just in case anyone is fooled into thinking there may be some substance to the claims since so many different people are making them, be advised that they all come from the same IP address in Canada!

20 Dec 2004 Time: 23:58:02 From: Julie Martin

Hi. I'm the photo editor for a nudist site located online and want to address as issue raised near the beginning of the forum. Someone stated the typical nudist site features young, nubile women, few overweight people, and few men. As the person who reviews submissions to our site, I can say we receive very few pictures of overweight women, or older women for that matter. As for men--it's correct to say we feature fewer of them, but that is because they represent a small number of total submissions, and are often unacceptable (erections, etc.). We do advocate a healthy lifestyle and break from the norm in acknowledging that their is a sensual (or sexual) aspect to nudism that is, we feel, underappreciated. What I mean is, most sites go out of their way to say how non-sexual nudism is, where we find the experience very sensual and, in appropriate circumstances, sexual, even if no body contact occurs.

Anyway, just passing through. Have a nice holiday!

22 Dec 2004 Time 22:47:14 From: Webmaster

There obviously can be a strong sensual element in nudity, but AANR style clubs and resorts show that this need not always be the case. We find that there are rewards simply being nude for its own sake, and for certain activities that clothing makes unpleasant.

Online sites that post or sell nude pictures are going to receive a very different set of submissions than an AANR affiliated club. The pictures that wind up in our newsletter represent a cross section of our membership, both with respect to gender and body size.

12 Jan 2005 Time: 17:27:21 From: charlie

I've been to several nude resorts.They all advertize a natural healthy environment.However my friend and I are constantly having to move to try to escape cigerette and cigar smoke.

06 Feb 2005 Time: 22:22:10 From: Part time nudist

Unless you've tried it and been to a real nudist camp, you can't appreciate the family feeling and the lack of bodily concern anyone has, no rich or poor but all friendly

29 Jan 2008 Time: 08:52:41 From: mercedes

I am a woman who advocates nudity for hygiene purposes. Ever since i have been a naturist, my infections and bad odours during menstruation, has stopped. I am proud of my sexuality though i am a dark girl in my twenties. It is common for us to gawk or ogle at men's privates. Most women would love this side of the naturist world. Mercedes. Goa, India.

30 Jan 2008 Time: 11:17:22 From: Webmaster

People find many benefits from nudism. Gawking is considered rude, so we don't do it for the simple reason that it makes others feel uncomfortable. While some people may be motivated by voyeurism at first, they soon learn that nudism offers very much more- especially the feeling of freedom.

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